Blog citoyen Français et Européen

Très intéressante cette interview du fils d'Amine Gemayel sur la situation actuelle au Liban; et au point 7 très révélatrice, de la part d'un "connaisseur" du problème, des aveuglements et de la naïveté de notre classe intello médiatique s'agissant chez nous des problèmes d'intégration et des banlieues.




Fils d’Amine Gemayel (frère de Bachir et président du Liban de 1982 à 1988), Samy Gemayel s’est fait remarquer dès 1997 par son activisme parmi les jeunes chrétiens s’opposant à l’occupation syrienne. Il deviendra ensuite le responsable des cellules étudiantes des jeunes du mouvement Kataeb. A la veille du premier congrès de l’Alliance Loubnanouna, il a accepté de répondre à nos questions.

Ci après son interview:

1) Le Liban panse peu à peu les blessures profondes laissées par l'affrontement entre le Hezbollah et Israël et les féroces bombardements israéliens, quel regard portez-vous sur ces évènements? Quels en sont pour vous les principaux responsables?

Cette guerre fut catastrophique pour le Liban et les Libanais. Des centaines de milliers de réfugiés, des milliers de maisons et de bâtiments détruits, 12 milliards de dollars supplémentaires à une dette qui atteignait déjà 40 milliards avant la guerre, des centaines de milliers de Libanais se sont retrouvés sans travail… La responsabilité retombe sur la partie qui a lancé cet engrenage de violence et qui est le Hezbollah sans pour autant justifier la réponse disproportionnée d’Israël notamment à l’encontre de l’infrastructure libanaise. Cependant, il est impératif d’évoquer parmi les responsables la totalité de la classe politique au pouvoir, pendant l’occupation syrienne, qui laisse faire depuis des années le Hezbollah et lui permettent de conserver sa milice armée ce qui menace directement le pluralisme social au Liban.

2) Face à l'agression israélienne, êtes-vous comme certains chrétiens partisan d'une "union nationale" derrière le Hezbollah?

Nous sommes partisans d’une union nationale contre les armes du Hezbollah. Cet armement est contre tous les principes constitutionnels Libanais et internationaux.

3) Pensez-vous que le Hezbollah sort affaibli ou renforcé de ces très violents affrontements? Est-ce une bonne nouvelle pour le Liban en général et les chrétiens en particulier?

Il ne fait aucun doute que le Hezbollah sort matériellement affaibli de cette guerre. Moralement, il conserve néanmoins son agressivité dans ses discours menaçant les libanais ce qui dissuade tous ces détracteurs qui n’ont pas envie de se frotter à une organisation qui est connue pour son activité sécuritaire. En plus les populations du monde arabe perçoivent le Hezbollah comme étant le seul à avoir vaincu Israël durant les 60 ans de conflit Israélo-Arabe. Mais ou est l’intérêt du Liban dans tout cela ?

4) On a beaucoup entendu parler en France de la souveraineté du Liban, que pouvez-vous nous dire de celle-ci? Quelle est la liberté et la souveraineté réelle du Liban par rapport à la Syrie, au Hezbollah ou à Israël?

La souveraineté Libanaise est une réalité, ce sont les libanais qui ne veulent pas l’appliquer. Les conflits internes sont tels que chacune des communautés libanaises principales s’accroche à un ou des alliés régionaux ce qui pose les limites de la souverainete de l’Etat

5) Face à l'explosion démographique des musulmans du Liban, quelle est la perspective des chrétiens?

Les chrétiens doivent penser profondément à ce problème qui constitue la menace numéro un pour leur survie, ajouté à l’émigration massive de ses jeunes diplômés. Ils doivent absolument commencer à préconiser un Etat composé dans lequel chacune des communautés peut préserver sa présence politique et culturelle. L’Alliance Loubnanouna doit mettre fin aux tentatives très sérieuses d’effacer l’identité des chrétiens du Liban, seule personnalité chrétienne imposante du Moyen Orient, qui s’est formée depuis des siècles et s’est écrite souvent avec du sang. Nous avons aussi l’intention d’exposer, dans notre premier Congrès du le 5 Novembre 2006, l’introduction de notre projet de 3e république, au nom du pluralisme libanais.

6) Qu'est-ce que cela représente pour vous de porter le nom de Gemayel?

Porter le nom Gemayel est une Fierté. Cette famille a tellement donné à ce pays et à la cause chrétienne en général que je ne peux que continuer un combat qui dure depuis des siècles. C’est donc aussi un Devoir.

7) Quel regard portez-vous sur la situation politique française et européenne?

La France connaît de grands changements au niveau du caractère des institutions et de l’identité de l’Etat. Les deux crises sociales qu’ont subi les français ces derniers mois (crise des banlieues et CPE) ne sont pas des crises passagères ; elles démontrent un malaise social dont la base se trouve dans des banlieues. Et malheureusement le noyau moteur dans les banlieues n’est pas français et n’a pas la même culture de respect de l’autre que la majorité des français et ce problème ne va faire qu’augmenter ces prochaines années. La totalité du modèle laïc français sera remis en question. De plus, peu de français se rendent compte du danger du changement démographique qui commence à transformer la culture et l’identité de la société française, ce qui nous gêne tout particulièrement.

Propos recueillis par Philippe Vardon

Ci après une interview du politologue et professeur d'université allemand Bassam Tibi. Musulman de nationalité allemande et d'origine syrienne, il livre ici une analyse passionnante sur les dangers résultant de notre grande incompréhension et méconnaissance, en tant qu'occidentaux, de la culture et des valeurs de l'Islam; ce, surtout à un moment où ces deux mondes se côtoient de plus en plus et s'interpénètrent plus douloureusement et difficilement que d'autres.
A titre d'exemple, selon lui, cette incompréhension débute déjà avec un énorme quiproquo sur le sens des mots; ainsi le sens que nous accordons nous à l'une de nos valeurs principales, la tolérance...




http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0%2C1518%2C440340%2C00.html



October 2, 2006 INTERVIEW WITH GERMAN ISLAM EXPERT BASSAM TIBI



"Europeans Have Stopped Defending Their Values"


For years, political scientist Bassam Tibi has been urging Muslims to integrate into European societies and Europe to stand up to Islamists. He spoke with SPIEGEL about the weakness of Europe, the orthodoxy of Islam and what Germany needs to do to open up.


DDP
Bassam Tibi, 62, was born in Damascus, Syria and came to Germany when he was 18 to study in Frankfurt. He has been a German citizen since 1967.


SPIEGEL: The administrator of one of Berlin's opera houses, the Deutsche Oper, has cancelled the Mozart Opera "Idomeneo" out of fear of an Islamist reaction. Is this the first sign of Germany bowing down to Islam?

Tibi: It's not the first sign, but rather a repeated one. Recently we have been seeing more and more acts of submission, the most recent case being the Pope's apology. When it comes to Islam, there is no freedom of the press nor freedom of opinion in Germany. Organized groups in Islamic communities want to decide what is said and done here. I myself have been dropped from numerous events because of threats.

SPIEGEL: You are trying to say that critics of Islam are systematically silenced in Germany?

Tibi: Yes. Even the comparatively moderate Turkish organization DITIB says there are no Islamists, only Islam and Muslims -- anything else is racism. That means that you can no longer criticize the religion. Accusing somebody of racism is a very effective weapon in Germany. Islamists know this: As soon as you accuse someone of demonizing Islam, then the European side backs down. I have also been accused of such nonsense, even though my family can trace its roots right back to Muhammad and I myself know the Koran by heart.

SPIEGEL: You have said numerous times that the conflict between the Western world and Muslim groups here is an "ideological war."

Tibi: The result of a conflict between two sides is that people politicize their cultural backgrounds. In Germany representatives of the Islamic communities try to hijack children who are born here, along with the entire Islamic community, to prevent them from being influenced by the society which has taken them in. Children born here are like blank sheets on which you can write European or Islamic texts. Muslim representatives want to raise their children as if they don't even live in Europe.

SPIEGEL: Many Germans believe that communities should live together peacefully without any parallel societies. Is it therefore right to compromise in order to avoid antagonizing Muslims unnecessarily?


Forum

Does Islam present a threat to the West?
Discuss the issue with other SPIEGEL ONLINE readers!

429 Posts,
Latest Post: Today, 12:50 am
By Neanderthal75 Tibi: Quite the opposite. The Islamic officials who live here are very intelligent and view this as weakness. Muslims stand by their religion entirely. It is a sort of religious absolutism. While Europeans have stopped defending the values of their civilization. They confuse tolerance with relativism.

SPIEGEL: When something insults Muslims, we often tend to just back off -- doesn't this help defuse the conflict?

Tibi: No. That is simply giving up. And the weaker the partner is viewed by the Muslims, then the greater the anger which they express. And this anger is often carefully staged. The argument over the cartoons for example was completely orchestrated. Nothing was spontaneous. A lot of people don't know if Denmark is a country or a cheese. Where did they get the Danish flags? Protests like these are weapons in this war of ideas. Or take another example: The president of the Iranian parliament was visiting Belgium where he had an appointment with a female Belgian colleague. He refused to shake her hand, so she didn't meet with him. He left Belgium and accused her of racism. The accusation of cultural insensitivity is a weapon. And we have to neutralize it.

SPIEGEL: Can the Islam conference which the German minister of domestic affairs, Wolfgang Schäuble, organized in Berlin last week, help in this regard?

Tibi: No, because the biggest taboo is that there even is a conflict at all. Everyone denies that. Instead people talk about misunderstandings and how these should be resolved. But a conflict of values is not a misunderstanding. Islamic orthodoxy and the German constitution are not compatible. And that is why the Islam conference failed.

SPIEGEL: So what's the answer then?

Tibi: Muslims have to give up three things if they want to become Europeans: They have to bid farewell to the idea of converting others, and renounce the Jihad. The Jihad is not just a way of testing yourself but also means using violence to spread Islam. The third thing they need to give up is the Shariah, which is the Islamic legal system. This is incompatible with the German constitution. There are also two things they need to redefine.

SPIEGEL: Which are?


Photo Gallery: Severing the Heads of Prophets
Click on a picture to launch the image gallery (5 Photos)
Tibi: Pluralism and tolerance are pillars of modern society. That has to be accepted. But pluralism doesn't just mean diversity. It means that we share the same rules and values, and are still nevertheless different. Islam doesn't have this idea. And Islam also has no tradition of tolerance. In Islam tolerance means that Christians and Jews are allowed to live under the protection of Muslims but never as citizens with the same rights. What Muslims call tolerance is nothing other than discrimination.

SPIEGEL: How many of the 3 million Muslims living in Germany would agree to these demands?

Tibi: A few thousand perhaps.

SPIEGEL: And what about the organizations at the Islam conference? After all, they all clearly said that they accept the German constitution. They also stated that it is allowed to change religion or to have no religion at all, even though the Shariah punishes a loss of faith with the death sentence. Is this a credible statement?

Tibi: I doubt that these statements are correct. Only representatives of organized Islam went to Schäuble's conference. Schäuble's problem is terrorism. And when the organizations tell him: "We are against terrorism," then everything is hunky-dory. But that is not a policy.

SPIEGEL: So who should Schäuble talk to? To you? For many years you have been a proponent of an enlightened form of Euro-Islam -- a topic which has been much discussed. But you are pretty much a lone voice.


NEWSLETTER
Sign up for Spiegel Online's daily newsletter and get the best of Der Spiegel's and Spiegel Online's international coverage in your In- Box everyday.



Tibi: I support reforming Islam and I am not alone in this. Next month I'm meeting 20 other Islamic reformers in Copenhagen. We are trying to reinvigorate the tradition of enlightening Islam. But our mistake is that we are not united.

SPIEGEL: And apart from these scientists and thinkers?

Tibi: It would be much more important to have enlightened Imams. But when the Alfred Herrhausen society wanted to invite a German-speaking Imam with European ideas to a discussion, no one could be found. In the end they took the Grand Mufti of Marseille. And why are there such people in France and not here? Because the French state and French society has worked on developing them.

SPIEGEL: So the German state should reform Islam?

Tibi: Of course not. But the French state helped set up a council of Muslims which was completely in line with European values. If the French state had not been involved, the council would have probably been in the hands of the Muslim Brotherhood. This is a challenge facing civil society, but the state also has to help. By staying neutral, as is the case here in Germany, you are handing victory over to the Islamists.

SPIEGEL: Schäuble is looking for partners who can help in the teaching of Islam in schools and the training of Imams.

Tibi: That is a good start. The important thing is that the teachers must be trained here and that the state and the society decides on the curriculum.

SPIEGEL: You have often said that the integration of Muslims in Germany has failed. And that integration can only be achieved by "educating a civil society." But who should do this and who decides who needs to be educated?

Tibi: I am thinking in particular about the re-education programs which were carried out in Germany after the Third Reich. Social studies teachers and political science faculties were given the task of turning young people into democrats. That worked then. Why shouldn't we have a similar model for Muslims? In youth clubs, or during Islamic instruction in schools. Of course it takes a long time, 50 years say, but we have to start.

SPIEGEL: But how do you expect to draw the third generation away from the influence of the mosques?


DPA
Inside the Sehitlik Mosque in Berlin.
Tibi: I don't have any clear idea either about how this should be done. The situation is this: young Muslims want to be "members of the club," part of German society. But they are rejected. And parallel societies provide warmth. It is a vicious circle.

SPIEGEL: But what is astounding is that you see yourself also as an example of failed integration. You have been working for 30 years at a German university, you have written 26 books in German and have been awarded the Federal Cross of Merit. Why, out of anyone, are you not integrated?

Tibi: It's more to do with a feeling of belonging. In Germany it is not a contradiction to say, Mr. Tibi is Syrian and has a German passport. In France however it is. And in America it would be a reason to take someone to court, as you are excluding them from American society. Even after 40 years here, I'm still not German. I also believe that I have not progressed higher as a professor here because I am a foreigner. When I retire I will be leaving Germany and going to Cornell university.

SPIEGEL: That sounds quite sad. What should Germany do?

Tibi: We need to see a change in culture among Germans too. We must change this idea that only those who are born here and have ethnically German parents, are seen as German. Almost 20 percent of the people living in Germany today have a foreign background. The problem is that Germany can't really offer foreigners an identity because the Germans hardly have a national identity themselves. That is certainly a result of Auschwitz. America's strength is that it is capable of accepting people into its communities.

Interview conducted by Cordula Meyer and Caroline Schmidt

Translated from the German by Damien McGuinness